片名｜大師講堂：焦點影人 佩姬・阿維許 Peggy Ahwesh
場次｜10/26（日）14:20 光點華山 二廳
與談人｜佩姬・阿維許 Peggy Ahwesh
整理｜廖芝璇
Ｑ：我們可以看到Peggy Ahwesh不論是在使用拾得影像或挪用影像，它的媒材是一直在變化的，從短片輯2 的《色愛》所使用包含是8毫米、16毫米，或是利用膠捲膠捲的電影媒介、短片輯3的《怪天氣》所使用的pixel vision，在短片輯4裡用了電玩畫面、台灣壹電視的動畫還有熱感應儀的影像。我很難用導演或大師來稱呼，我覺得就是一個頑童，所以想先請Peggy Ahwesh稍微補充說明一下媒材使用的部分。
大家好，我是Peggy，謝謝主持人的引言。我從事媒體的產業已經很長一段時間了，橫跨不同年代的各種科技，在這些科技當中我很喜歡超級8的這樣的攝影工具，使用了一段時間，我把它當作是一種媒體的這種攝錄的一種格式 ，尤其當時拍攝的一些對象都是他比較親近的一些他人，所以可以說是一種比較奇特的家內電影的一種替代手法。在使用影像的媒材展換中受到了很多啟發，慢慢開始關注材質及物質性的功能性創新及啟發，玩了很多不同科技，像熱感應的攝錄影等，最近還有使用飛行模擬器創作。透過熱像儀是想要關注戰爭方面的議題，因為熱像儀原本是用在軍事上的夜視，透過這樣的監控功能，看見紐約街頭，是對於監控人民的的批判。有一個年紀比較長的朋友，就形容我是一個「創作狂」，這確實是一個很貼切的形容。我在整個創作生涯中不斷游移在不同的媒材之間，也很願意學習、感知及思索不同的媒材的技術、特質，以及如何應用於藝術領域。
Ｑ：在《她：蘿拉》是如何搜集到這些電玩的素材，你是一邊玩電玩嗎？花了多少時間破關？
在《她：蘿拉》是2001年的作品，從1999年到2000年，我們進入了新的世紀，在有一種末世感的恐懼時，也有一種興奮感的出現，和影像圈百年的紀念。一開始就只是覺得這個電玩很棒，在一邊玩的過程中一邊記錄，逐漸累積到一定的素材後就把這些片段用來創作。我是一個步調比較緩慢的創作者，要把一個作品達到心中標準的狀態是需要一段時間的。在玩《古墓奇兵3》的時候，其實已經花三個月時間把關卡破關了 但想到要用裡面的一些素材的時候，又花三個月再玩一次才開始創作。到這裡已經花了六個月，所以前前後後將這部作品完成大概花了一年的時間。
Ｑ：《她：蘿拉》中了電玩以外還加了許多，女性文學的旁白，想請導演詳加說明這個部分。
以女性為主角的電玩是比較少的，裡頭的主角當然不是一個女性主義者，更像是所謂的冒險者，或是一個迷失的靈魂，所以加入這些旁白是更想要貼近這個遊戲，貼近其中女性視角的質感。所以裡面被援引的文本有三個部分，一個是Fernando認為自己是一個孤兒的文本，第二部分是一名名為Sandra的美國音樂家，他認為自己是一個外星人，總有一天黑人的同胞會一起回到宇宙，最後一個是一位名為Joanna Ross的科幻作家，在1970年代書寫了關於克隆人的文本。我認為這三個文本在我創作這部作品的當下，是可以對當代的文化情境上做一個總結的。
Ｑ：這四部短片是的主體是好像是一種跨界，從女性主義到戰爭、環境污染等面向。Peggy Ahwesh好像從某一個時間點之後，就從女性的家庭錄像這種私電影，轉向對對於人類世、民族誌的一種關注。想請問您怎麼會有興趣開啟這樣的研究？
從私密性到世界性的議題的轉變，某部分是源自於自己信心的改變，以及自己所處的位置的再定位，不論是作為一個女性，還是一個文化成員，好像已經可以處理更大的問題，而且感受到一種需要正視這些議題的急迫性。
Ｑ：請問導演是如何和壹動畫取得這些影像？
某種程度上可能是用非法的方式取得，其實就是直接在網路上下載這些影像。這背後的故事其實是當時在紐約的學院教「再製」這門課程，開始思考如何將這些新聞的影像以藝術的形式再製。當時有一位佛羅里達州的男性被謀殺了，但行為人被判無罪，所以有相關的動畫敘說這個故事，因為故事不斷變動，所以這個動畫有很多的版本，我因此開始好奇是否在虛擬世界中才有將這種具有新聞熱度的事件符號化的空間，更進一步的，會不會觀眾更傾向於這種留有現實與想像游移空間的形式。後來就在線上資料庫下載大概五百部影像，一直在思考要如何再製這些影像。這些作品對我來說很像時空膠囊，封存了這段時間的記憶。作為一個藝術領域的工作者、作為一個公民，這個文化的挪用、影像的拼組，對我而言就像是一個可以批判主流敘事的武器。
Ｑ：《第三身》的製作組織看到你的影片他們有什麼想法嗎？
他們當然沒看過。在大學教書的時候有能讓學生參與製片的克繩，其中一個是關於創世紀之初的影片，讓我想起過去透過虛擬實境創作的記憶，在這個實驗過程中會嘗試觸碰、感知身體的邊界，再次驚艷於這種初始的起源，以此連結到伊甸園的想像，變成為了《第三身》的創作啟發。
Ｑ：《她：蘿拉》中讓女性角色死亡的畫面重複出現是有什麼特別的意涵嗎？
這個角色在每個一關中都會死掉一次，但他總是會回來，這種不可能死亡的狀態讓這個角色帶有一種詩意的悲劇感。他所存活的方式不是典型的永生，但仍帶著賦能的意涵，有著一種英雄式的感覺。
Ｑ：想請問導演有沒有考慮用AI生成的影像做為創作媒材？
我對ＡＩ是感興趣的，但我認為要用現存的AI技術創作獨特的作品是需要花很多時間的。因為我更感興趣的是讓作品在形式上帶有反諷的意味，而非創作一個好看的圖片。要反抗一個工具，必須很熟悉這個工具，所以還需要花費更多的時間。目前有透過AI的方式製作音樂的錄影帶，是朋友1980年代的表演，還處於探索的階段，有一些驚奇、可怕的過程。
Ｑ：電影中的文字對導演的意義是什麼？
我一直在1980年代的老龐克女孩和女性主義學者的角色中之間游離、並存。對我來說，是先有了影像，才會產生後面的文本。我常常告訴我的學生，作為一個藝術家，你必須喜歡這些媒材，並親自觀察世界、與人接觸、或是在家中設置一些場景體驗其中。 我的靈感便是來自於我實際經驗的這些影像、畫面，所以這是一個是一個往返的過程，在影像的採集以及閱讀中反覆來回。就如同電玩中的影像，是透過這些作者的文字能讓我更了角色的情境。
Ｑ：《第三身》可以是一個樂觀的故事，也可以是人類從天堂中被逐出的故事，想請問導演是如何解釋科技、VR？
原本的影像是演出了亞當與夏娃被逐出伊甸園的故事，但我沒有沿用這個故事，而更關注純淨，以譬諭VR年代的開端，認為他是能帶來烏托邦、美好年代的想像，就如同伊甸園的象徵，但未來VR可能會被逐出伊甸園，也不一定，故事是尚未完結的。
We can observe that Peggy Ahwesh constantly experiments with different media, whether using found footage or appropriated images. For example, in *Color of Love* from Short Film Collection 2, she utilized formats like 8mm, 16mm, and film stock; in *Strange Weather* from Short Film Collection 3, she employed Pixelvision; and in Short Film Collection 4, she incorporated video game footage, animations from Taiwan's Next Animation Studio, and thermal imaging. It seems difficult to refer to her as a "director" or "master," as her approach feels more akin to that of a playful artist.
Q: Could Peggy Ahwesh elaborate on her use of various media?
Hello everyone, I'm Peggy. Thank you for the introduction. I've been involved in the media industry for a long time, spanning various eras of technology. Among these, I have a particular fondness for Super 8 cameras, which I used extensively as a recording medium. I especially utilized it for capturing close and intimate subjects, creating what could be described as a peculiar form of domestic cinema. My exploration of diverse media has been deeply inspiring, leading me to focus on materiality and functionality in innovative ways. I've experimented with many technologies, including thermal imaging cameras, and more recently, flight simulators. Using thermal imaging, I sought to examine issues related to war, as this technology was originally developed for military night vision. By applying it to monitor New York City streets, I aimed to critique the surveillance of civilians. A friend once described me as a "creative maniac," which I find to be a fitting description. Throughout my career, I’ve continuously shifted between various media, embracing learning and reflection on their technical and artistic applications.
Q: In She Puppet, how did you gather the video game footage? Did you play the game yourself, and how long did it take you to finish it?
She Puppet is a work from 2001, developed between 1999 and 2000, as we were entering a new century. This era brought both a sense of apocalyptic fear and excitement, along with the centennial celebration of cinema. Initially, I simply found the game fascinating and started recording while playing it, gradually accumulating footage for the project. I’m a slow-paced creator, and it takes time to bring a piece to my desired standard. While playing *Tomb Raider III*, it took me three months to complete the levels. However, when I decided to use its footage for a project, I replayed the game for another three months before starting the actual creation process. Overall, completing the work took about a year.
Q: In She Puppet, you included voiceovers from women’s literature alongside the video game content. Could you elaborate on this aspect?
Video games with female protagonists are relatively rare. The protagonist here isn’t exactly a feminist but rather an adventurer or a lost soul. Adding these voiceovers was an attempt to align the game with a more nuanced female perspective. The voiceovers draw from three texts: one by Fernando, who sees himself as an orphan; another by Sandra, an American musician who identifies as an alien and believes that Black people will one day return to space; and lastly, Joanna Ross, a science fiction writer from the 1970s who wrote about cloning. These texts resonated with me and offered a summary of the cultural context I sought to address through this work.
Q: Your short films seem to traverse various themes, from feminism to war and environmental pollution. At some point, you seem to shift from private home movies to exploring the Anthropocene and ethnographic concerns. What inspired this transition?
The shift from intimate to global issues partly stems from a change in my confidence and a redefinition of my position—as a woman and as a cultural participant. I felt more capable of tackling larger issues and increasingly sensed the urgency of addressing them.
Q: How did you acquire the animations from Next Animation Studio for your work?
To some extent, the acquisition involved unofficial methods—I simply downloaded the footage online. At the time, I was teaching a course on "remaking" at a New York academy and began reflecting on how to reinterpret news footage as art. The backstory involves a man in Florida who was murdered, but the perpetrator was acquitted. The case was retold in various animations, and I was intrigued by how the mutable nature of the story allowed it to exist in this symbolic space. I downloaded around 500 pieces of footage from online archives, continuously pondering how to remake them. These works became time capsules, preserving memories of that era. For me, as an artist and citizen, appropriating and reassembling such footage serves as a weapon for critiquing mainstream narratives.
Q: What was the reaction of the The Third Body production team to your video?
They hadn’t seen it. While teaching at university, I provided students with the opportunity to participate in filmmaking projects. One of these involved a film about genesis, which reminded me of my past experiences creating in virtual reality. In the process, I revisited the exploration of bodily boundaries, reconnecting with the origins and myths of Eden, which became an inspiration for The Third Body.
Q: In She Puppet, the recurring death of the female character carries a specific meaning. Could you elaborate on this?
The character dies in every level but always returns. This state of impossible death imbues the character with a poetic sense of tragedy. While she doesn’t possess typical immortality, there’s an empowering, almost heroic quality to her survival.
Q: Have you considered using AI-generated images as a creative medium?
I’m intrigued by AI, but I believe creating unique works with existing AI tools requires a significant investment of time. My interest lies more in producing work with an ironic edge rather than merely crafting visually appealing pieces. To critique a tool, one must first master it, so I’m still in the exploratory phase. Recently, I experimented with using AI to produce a music video featuring a friend's 1980s performance. The process has been surprising and occasionally unsettling.
Q: What is the significance of text in your films?
I’ve always navigated between the roles of an old punk girl and a feminist scholar. For me, the images come first, followed by the text. I often tell my students that as an artist, you must fall in love with your medium and actively observe the world, interact with people, or create staged experiences. My inspiration emerges from the images I capture and the texts I read, forming a reciprocal process of image collection and textual interpretation. For instance, the game footage in She Puppet gained depth through the texts I incorporated, which helped me delve into the character’s context.
Q: The Third Body can be interpreted as either an optimistic story or one about humanity's expulsion from paradise. What’ your point of technology and VR in this context?
The original footage depicted Adam and Eve being expelled from Eden. However, I chose to focus on purity, paralleling it with the dawn of the VR era, envisioning it as a utopian and idyllic beginning akin to Eden. Yet, the future might see VR expelled from its paradise. The story, as I see it, remains unfinished.
