Challenging Archives and Unveiling the Hidden Love Story
Interview with Magnus Gertten, director of Nelly & Nadine
Ｑ：What leads you to make this film?
In the beginning of Nelly & Nadine, you see a newsreel shot in April 1945, with survivors coming from the concentration camp. They arrived in my home town of Malmö, filmed in the moment of freedom.
When I saw this newsreel in 2007 for the first time, I became so fascinated by the faces of these women. I dreamt about someday I could find out who they are. I ended up making two films before Nelly & Nadine concerning these faces in the newsreel.
The second one is called Every Face Has a Name, premiered in 2015, where I put names to all these women who were standing there in the harbor. I thought I have done two films about the Second World War, and never more. But then I came to a big screening in Paris, probably the last screening for that film. In November 2016, just before I arrived there, I got an email from a farmer couple who lives outside of Paris. And they said we had a story that might be of interest to you, so I met the couple at the café. We drank some wine, and slowly they showed me some photos. In a way, they put this beautiful love story on my lap. And I realized maybe I really need to do one more film.
Ｑ：What’s Sylvie’s take on this journey of unveiling family secrets?
It’s not easy for Sylvie. When I first met her, she didn’t want to be part of the film, so I had to go back again, and that was the moment when she told me there were diaries that she wasn’t able to read. And they had an unopened archive in the attic. When I met her the second time, she said, “ok, I had to do this journey.” She is the one to confront this family secret: who was her grandmother exactly? What happened to her during the war? Sylvie was quite uncomfortable in the beginning, but when we had a premiere at the Berlinale. She went on to the stage, opened her arms and was so liberated, because of everything she went through. She felt so proud of being part of this beautiful love story.
And it’s really Sylvie that takes the decision here. What I can do as a filmmaker is try to be there when things are happening. It’s Sylvie that decided to embark on this journey into her family history. Of course, there were moments when she did not want to talk about things or felt uncomfortable in some situations. For example, we had a meeting with American feminist writer Joan Schenkar. It’s a brutal scene in a way, and it was tough for Sylvie. It’s really a moment of being slapped in the face: didn’t you realize these two women were in love? But Joan Schenkar probably articulates one of the most important things in the film: “nothing is real, socially, until it’s expressed.” That’s one of the journeys of the film. Sylvie finally expresses it and embraces the story.
Ｑ：It's amazing to hear Joan Schenkar talking about Natalie Clifford Barney.
It’s also a neglected and oppressed history. So I am very happy that we found one of the very few existing live footage of Natalie Clifford Barney. It was shot in the sixties, but it’s definitely her. When I was in Paris to meet Sylvie, I was walking alone and I was trying to get into the house where Natalie Barney once lived. It’s closed and has no plaque on Rue Jacob that tells people that for more than sixty years it’s the one of the most important literary salons in France, and of international significance, for female artists that were so supported by Natalie Clifford Barney. It’s a history that needed to be told.
Ｑ：Your journey begins with the archival footage, and it’s also the medium that you have been working a lot. Can you elaborate on your use of archival footage?
I have three different kinds of archival footage in my film. First is the newsreel. But you don’t have to accept that, “ok this is the archive I have and I have to use it in the best way.” Instead, you can go deeper into your archive, challenge it and ask the most impossible question.
Another gift comes from the 8mm films of Nelly and Nadine shot after the war. Most of that material is filmed by Nadine. You can tell there was some sort of relationship between the woman who held the camera and the woman in front of the camera. It’s love. It shows their everyday life they were able to build in Venezuela. People have been asking me why they had to go to Venezuela. I think we really need to remember the time. In Belgium, it was not illgal to live a lesbian life, but it was not easy. Venezuela was a booming state at that time. They ended up there and they also found their communities there.
I also have this “poetic archive material,” the diary written inside the concentration camp. The challenge for the filmmaker is: what do you see when you hear a story from a concentration camp. We spent months working on this. We later found a documentary shot in Belgium during the war by iconic documentary filmmaker Henri Storck. In order to make this film, he had to make an agreement with Nazi government at Belgium at that time. So there was something dark, strange and mystical about the images, which we use to pair with the diaries.
Ｑ：Nadine Huang is an incredible figure on many levels, but her stories remained largely untold even in the Chinese-speaking world. Can you comment on that?
At some screenings, I encountered some young Chinese audiences that were quite affected by the film, saying that it is also a film relevant to Chinese audiences today, especially concerning your big neighbor where people are not able to express themselves freely. We were also in contact with some Chinese filmmakers. They were working on some documentaries about Nadine. She is the daughter of the ambassador of Madrid, and then moving back to China. But she is also a modern woman, who could drive a car, do sports, learn five languages, become a lawyer and work for the Prime Minister. She could have it all in China, but decided to leave for Paris, in order to live a life true to herself.
The first time when I saw Nadine’s face in the footage, her face really stood out. She was liberated but she did not look happy. A sense of defiance even, seemingly asking the camera, “why are you here? You don’t know me.” We did know a little bit about her earlier life, but we did not have a clue about her life after the war. It really took a long time before we can have an idea. It’s also because Sylvie willing to embark on this journey with us.
Nadine is of course the big mystery of this film, because we heard a lot from Nelly’s diaries. So I certainly hope that someone would investigate more about Nadine. She is really a super cool woman, unbelievably brave. But one of the sad things about the mini documentaries that you can now find on Chinese streaming platform is that they don’t talk about her lesbian aspect. They talked about everything else except this.
Ｑ：This journey ends up leading to Latin America, meeting all these people, witnessing stories passing onto the next generations, what’s the most unforgettable thing for you?
I have never imagined Venezuela would end up in part of the film like this. One of the amazing things of making this film is meeting their old friend from Venezuela, José Rafael Lovera, who spent a lot of time with Nelly and Nadine. He was not able to live in Venezuela now because of the political situation. He is such a beautiful person, but he also said something we wondered a lot about. After that interview, I talked to his daughter. She said, “my father was never able to express himself. To express who he really feels he is.” So he too lived in a shadow in a way even though he had a family. But again, she told me, “my father is fine with me telling those stories.”
These are all very important. Because it's also a film about today. It’s not just a story about the end of the Second World War. And of course his daughter told us his story, and we were so looking forward to having him attending the premiere at the Berlinale. But unfortunately he died of Covid-19 in October last year. So he was never able to see part of his life story being told. That’s really sad.
In fact, it has to be a film about today. It’s not made like an activist or political film, but it is a political film. When you try to finance the film, and travel with the film, you encounter many difficulties. For example, when we presented this idea to Polish National Television, and the representative said, “it’s a beautiful story but we can’t broadcast it in Poland.” When you travel around fifty or eighty countries around the world, you realize that these are not the rights widely respected. I hope it can be an inspirational film that can relate to your own life, your own relationship to love and how you want life and love to be.
Ｑ：Your film has mentioned that Nelly and Nadine have once wanted to publish their journal, will their dream be realized nowadays?
We often receive this question. During the Berlinale, Sylvie herself answered this question. She said that she is writing and collecting all the materials, including journals, letters, photos, etc. She is trying to read everything. She said she would write the book, and I really hope that she could do that. What we talked about in the film is just a small part of this amazing life story.
