Q: It’s interesting to see how a traditional practice preserved in nowadays societies and linked to other practices. We have a similar tradition with hired professional female mourners in Taiwan. To start with this wailing women tradition, can you talk about how you encounter this practice?
Julia: I know this practice since I'm 18 years old, but this practice of wailing in public or at funerals exist long ago everywhere in Europe. It’s a disappearing tradition, as young people don’t want to learn it anymore. I was particularly fascinated by the idea of helping others by wailing, so that people can grieve. It's not a spontaneous affection, but something can be learned and be rehearsed. Through repetition, it can become even more authentic in a way. Since my background is related to theatre and performance, I'm always interested in this performative aspect in society. At that time, I was asked by a theater to develop a short performance piece on the topic of Antigone, who is punished because she wants to grieve her brother Polinycus. People are banned to have a funeral, but she does it anyway. So, doing something in public space can be political.
A French historian Nicole Loraux also mentioned in her research that in ancient Greece, in the form of the first democracy, women grieving was actually banned from the street because by doing so, women would interfere men's possibility to be an honorable citizen. It would emotionally affect all the men. So they banned this “care work” and banned sadness and grief into the private space. This aspect really interests me, not only about grieving as a community, but also what it means to do it in public.
For this film, I went to the Balkans with a good friend of mine. She's from this area. Vienna is very close to Serbia, Montenegro and these rural areas where the film was shot. The women who we met were really a few people who is still doing wailing practice. So this film developed over a span of five years of visiting there. I also came across Women In Black which use this performativity to protest, and Ljubica Duvnjak Đorđevski, the pole dancer, as well. Somehow these different generations came together and they are all related to grief and feminism in patriarchal society. It’s also about being physically out in the public. There is political element that you can find as a form of protest.
Q:As you mentioned this practice is disappearing, what is your observation?
Julia: The practice is disappearing, because this traditions aren’t passing to the next generations. As women, they're respected in the communities if they're good wailers. However, their own daughters were not interested in learning. They can't listen to their own mothers crying like this, because they also practice this at home. They don't want to have anything to do with it anymore because it is too much for them to take or too sad.
But this, especially in the Balkans, is also connected to the wars. There are reasons why these women are still doing it. Because the Balkan Wars last for 10 years, and all the neighbors were, out of religious reasons, killing each other. They all lost so many of their family members, friends, and being constantly reminded of the deaths. They're also in a way so much in their past, instead of adapting to the new circumstances. They're also really stuck in this role. On the one hand, they are strong and being able to hold all these pains. On the other hand, it's not easy for them to be free from this role. Women In Black also raises this question on why women must carry all this grief and pain. Yeah, because the system is very patriarchal, especially in the rural areas.
Q: Even though the wailing women are well-respected in the communities, there are taboos applied to them. They cannot wail for her own husband.
Julia: Yeah. Milena Potpara, the woman who wails at the end of the film for her husband. It was really sad because we met her husband. After he died, we came back to see her again. After a year, like when the big pain is somehow ceasing, it is allowed to let go.
Sarah: I think she was still not allowed to do that. It was more like a rebellious act that she wailed in front of her husband’s grave. Not openly rebellious, of course, but she knew she was overstepping the border.
Julia: Yeah. We didn't know that she was doing it while we were shooting. We were visiting the graveyard, and all of a sudden, she just start it. I had the feeling it's somehow a gift for us that she's doing this. The lyrics that she's chanting are all improvised. They all improvised what they said. I think this aspect is really interesting. This is also mentioned by Nicole Loraux, in ancient Greece, the wailing of women was so loud that they would even criticize the men. So women would not only praise the person who died, but also telling some truth possibly for the first time. But with all the women that we met, they said they don't do such things.
Q: Can you also talk about Women In Black?
It's in fact a global organization all over the world. It actually started in Israel following the First Intifada in 1988. Women would dress in black clothes, protesting against war and ritualizing the protest. In the film, the one based in Belgrade was founded in reaction to the start of the war. In this organization, there are Muslim, Orthodox and Christian, and they still identify themselves as Yugoslavian people.
In fact, during Yugoslavia time, there were people from Montenegro moving to the north of Yugoslavia, which is now Serbia, for work. So there's a lot of Montenegrin communities now living in Serbia. They speak almost the same language, though they call it different language, such as Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian. If you want to study the language, it is called Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian. This is the remains from this war. That's why also most families are completely spread over those three countries. However, instead of taking the responsibility, the conservative governments are still feeding this idea that people are not forgiving each other and pretend there weren’t war crimes. As shown in the film, the Srebrenica massacre, the genocide that took 8000 Bosnian people, is still denied by a lot of Serbian people. Women In Black are committed to bring together women who were victims of war in these ex-Yugoslavia countries. Sometimes it’s even difficult to speak about it, so they sing or cry out to let out this massive trauma.
What they are doing is still quite dangerous. What appeared in the film was the first women's shelter in Montenegro, and there would be some male nationalists threatening them. They would beat against the house and yelling. Sabina Talović is really a brave and strong woman. She would just go onto the street, and yell back. Two years ago, she was beaten up by some 35-year-old guy and had to go to the hospital. In some areas, there are so much hate against women who tried to do things. She doesn't stop because of that, and it somehow gives her more strength to continue the fight. I have never met women like that who really fight with their bodies against this discrimination. Women in Black protest every week and they has continued to do so for 30 years. Every Friday, they go to protest. They're all friends, and it gives them so much power as a group. Once a year, there is a big memorial event for the Srebrenica massacre. They participate the event every year and they would need police protection all the way to go there, because they are really threatened, as what they are doing is considered spitting on their own country.
Making this film also make me reflect on what is my activism, and how I make my own political act. It’s personally inspiring for me. It’s also about uniting people. Like Ljubica, the daughter, she has critique on what her mother’s doing, she would maybe do it differently, but the main motives are the same. That's also how things start to change when you are able to find common ground, even though you don't 100% agree on each other.
Q: At the beginning of the film, it is indicated that this film cannot be shown in Montenegro. Can you specify the reason?
Julia: If we show this film in public in Montenegro, it’s possible for them to get threatened. We will show it in Belgrade, but especially not in Montenegro because the society is too patriarchal. They try to have the first Pride two years ago, but people were just beaten up by the nationalists. We did show the film to women in private, but we would not show it in public. In fact, it may not be even possible to show it to some of the women with their family. Because, for example, I went shooting several times, so we kept meeting the same women. There was a time when one of their husband suddenly changed his mind, and then we cannot come the next day. We cannot see her, and there's nothing you can do. It's also interesting when the husband is there, you immediately recognize the time when a man enters the room, the atmosphere completely changed. All the women start to serve drinks. This is also why sometimes it was rather difficult to shoot, and sometimes we managed.
Sarah: When Julia was trying to film in Montenegro, she had to go through men a lot of time. If men don't agree, it's not possible to film. And women didn’t say everything that’s on their mind on camera.
Julia: They said everything off camera. Like the woman with many sheep. Off camera, she started to cry and said that we are the first person to ask her opinion on anything in her whole life, so she was so happy.
Q: Can you also talk about how you begin to make three segment in this film?
Sarah: It was meant to be a feature film, so Julia edited the film first. But I felt like it was not really focused, so I convinced her to make it short. I wanted to make connection of these three stories through their actions and motivations of all the three generations.
Julia: Yeah, it’s also a funny story that how we met each other. We met through our friend Francy Fabritz, the filmmaker of Etage X, which is also presented here in WMWIFF. I worked with her for another project where she worked as a cinematographer. This is really crazy, so we three are including in the same festival here!
Sarah: Yeah, Francy contacted me, saying there is a director who needs help with editing, so that’s how we connected.
Julia: When I found Sarah, she decided to re-edit the film, and this was my struggle point of having all these stories and footages. Since we live in different countries, sometimes I went to Berlin to edit together, or sometimes she would come to Vienna.
Julia: Yes. Maybe I can also talk about the music at the end of the film. It’s a super old pop song from ex-Yugoslavia, with the musician, Tamara Ristić Kezz, re-interpreted the song. Some people say the song somehow reflects the love for this country, but also about giving it away just for money. This is exactly like the dichotomy that Ljubica experienced──being so bound to the Balkans including your own identity. But on the other hand, all the young people who have university degrees would just leave for somewhere else. Tamara is quite a well-known DJ and singer in the region, so it’s nice to have more contemporary music to go along with some more traditional music.
