探尋檔案影像與藏匿其中的愛戀故事
專訪《閣樓上的秘密》導演馬格努斯・格騰
採訪／陳慧穎、周易
翻譯、整理／王湘緹、袁廷豪、陳慧穎
是否能談談拍攝本片的原因與契機？
在《閣樓上的秘密》片頭，觀眾會看到一段於1945年四月拍攝的檔案影像。這個片段紀錄下許多從集中營救出來的倖存者。他們最終抵達瑞典馬爾默（Malmö），也就是我的家鄉。影像記錄下重獲自由的歷史時刻。
我在2007年第一次看到這段畫面，便對這些女人的身世感到好奇，幻想哪天我能指認出她們的真實身分。後來，在《閣樓上的秘密》之前，我接連拍了兩部片，都是跟這段檔案影像有關。
其中第二部就叫做《每一張臉都有一個名字》，這部片指認出所有站在港口的女性名字，並於2015年首映。當時我想說我已經做了兩部跟二戰有關的電影了，差不多可以收尾了。2016年，《每一張臉都有一個名字》來到巴黎，應該算最後一次在大銀幕放映。11月，在我抵達巴黎前，我收到一封信，寄件人是一對來自巴黎郊外的務農夫婦。他們告訴我，他們有個我可能會有興趣的故事。於是，我在一家咖啡廳和他們見面。我們喝了點紅酒邊聊天，然後他們秀了幾張照片給我看。
他們將這美麗的愛情故事交付予我，我知道我得再拍一部片。
對席樂薇來說，揭開家庭秘密的過程是什麼樣的經歷？
這對席樂薇來說並不容易。我第一次跟她見面時，她並不想參與其中，所以我必須再回去一趟。那次她才跟我說，家裡有一些她無法閱讀的日記，閣樓上還有未開封、未整理的儲藏物。第二次我見到她的時候，她說「好，我得踏上這趟旅程」。她得去面對家族秘密：她的外婆究竟是什麼樣的人？外婆在戰爭期間到底經歷了什麼？席樂薇一開始其實不太自在，但當這部片在柏林影展世界首映時，她在台上展開雙臂，以一種很放開的姿態接受觀眾的掌聲。包括她所經歷的這一切，她的參與化為這段愛情故事的一部分。她對自己的參與感到驕傲。
而整個過程也只有她可以做出決定。我身為導演，就只能試圖在事情發生時，在她旁邊，在現場。是席樂薇自己決定要踏上這趟探尋家族歷史的旅程。當然，這過程中，她也有不想談、或覺得不自在的時候。例如，當我們與美國女性主義作家瓊．申卡爾（Joan Schenkar）見面時，有些時刻是非常殘酷的，對席樂薇來說是場硬仗。當對方說出「是否從沒想過這兩人或許相愛？」，這句話猶如打了她一巴掌。但申卡爾也同時說出了本片最核心的一句話：「在這個社會裡，沒說出口的事，就不算數。」這是這趟旅程的必經之路，而席樂薇最後也願意接納，願意說出口了。
瓊．申卡爾談及娜塔莉．巴尼的事情，這是個非常令人驚豔的片段。
這也是一段被忽略、被壓抑的歷史，我也非常開心能找到在歷史上少數僅存的娜塔莉．巴尼的動態影像。雖然那些影像是在1960年代拍攝的，但絕對是她沒錯。我和席樂薇約在巴黎見面，我獨自走在街上，想去看看當時娜塔莉．巴尼的住所。結果進不去，在賈克博路上也沒有任何名人故居的標示牌。經過的人甚至不知道這地方有長達六十多年的時間是法國、甚至是國際間最重要的文學沙龍。也因為娜塔莉．巴尼所支持的那些女性藝術家，這地方深具意義性。是一段應該要被訴說的歷史。
這趟旅程始於一段檔案影像，也是您的電影中經常處理的媒介。想請導演闡述一下您是如何看待檔案影像的運用？
在電影裡我使用了三種檔案影像。第一種是新聞影像。我認為大家在使用檔案素材時，不要覺得只能認命接受自己能取得的素材，不要只會想「我只要找到好好利用它的方式即可」。反之，你可以以更深入的方式面對素材，挑戰它，提出艱難的問題。
奈莉和訥亭在戰後拍的八豪米底片，對我來說是個禮物。這些大部分都是訥亭拍的，而你也可以感受到拍攝者與被攝者之間的特殊情感，那是愛。這些影像讓我們得以一窺她們的委內瑞拉日常。人們時常問我，為什麼她們最後去了委內瑞拉？我認為大家可以回想一下當時那個年代，即便在比利時同性戀伴侶不是違法的，要在那過生活也不是那麼簡單的。而委內瑞拉正開始繁榮了起來，所以她們最後選擇在那生活，並在那裡建立起她們的生活圈。
第三種素材則是我稱之為「詩意的檔案影像」，也就是奈莉在集中營撰寫的日記內容。對於導演來說，真正的挑戰是：當你有一個關於集中營的故事，你該配上什麼樣的畫面？我們花了好幾個月研究嘗試。後來我們找到紀錄片大師亨利．斯托克（Henri Storck）所拍攝的紀錄片。為了拍攝，他必須與比利時的納粹政府達成某種協議。因此片子存在著某種黑暗、詭譎神秘的氛圍，我們就加以運用，來配合日記的內容。
即便黃訥亭是如此不可思議的存在，她在華人世界中尚未被廣泛認識，且仍有許多尚待挖掘的面向。
在幾場放映會上，我有遇到一些年輕的中國觀眾，他們覺得很震撼。他們跟我說這部片即便是對於現今的中國觀眾來說都是深有所感，特別是講到你們的大鄰居——中國，他們生活在無法自由表達意見的地方。我們也遇到一些中國導演，他們也在做一些跟訥亭有關的紀錄短片。
她是中國駐馬德里外交大使的女兒，之後搬回中國一陣子。同時，她也是個非常摩登獨立的女人，她開車、從事運動、學五種語言、擔任律師，曾是北洋政府末代總理潘復的祕書。她在中國什麼都有。但她最後決定前往巴黎，其實為的就是過上一個忠於自我的人生。
我第一次在影像中看到黃訥亭的臉時，她臉上的神情在人群中非常突出。她當時雖獲自由，但看起來並不開心。甚至有點反抗、挑釁的意味，似乎在質問拍攝她的相機：「你在這做什麼？你根本不了解我。」我們當時只知道一些她早期的生活，但我們對於她戰後的人生一無所知。我們過了好久才開始有點頭緒，也是多虧於席樂薇願意與我們展開這趟旅程。
雖然我們從奈莉的日記中看到很多關於她的事情，但黃訥亭確實是本片巨大的謎團。我也希望有人能夠繼續研究黃訥亭的生平。她真的是個非常酷的女人，她的勇敢令人不可置信。唯一令人感到遺憾的事情是，目前在中國串流平台上流通的紀錄短片，她作為女同志的面向隻字未提。紀錄片中談論了所有，唯獨這件事沒被提到。
這趟旅程來到拉丁美洲，我們也看到這段故事如何傳到下一個世代。對你來說，這趟旅程中最令人難忘的事情是什麼？
老實說我從沒想過在委內瑞拉會出現在這樣的電影中。拍這部片，其中一件非常難能可貴的事情便是見到她們在委內瑞拉的老朋友，例如何塞．羅維拉。他時常與奈莉、訥亭見面。他現在因為當地的政治環境，無法繼續生活於委內瑞拉。他是一位很美好的人，但他也同時說了一些讓我們感到困惑的話。在訪談後，我跟他女兒聊天，她說：「我父親在這一生當中，一直無法表達自我，成為他真正的樣子。」因此即便他有了家庭，某種程度上他也是藏匿著自己。但她也跟我說，「父親願意讓我談這些故事。」
這些事情都是非常重要的，因為這部片跟現今社會息息相關。它不只是討論第二次世界大戰的故事。當然，因為在片中他女兒跟我們說了他的故事，我們也很期待他能出席柏林影展的世界首映。不幸的是，他去年十月確診過世，沒機會看到這部講述他部分人生的電影，這令人非常傷心。
事實上，這部片應該要跟現今有關。雖然他很難定義為一部所謂的「倡議電影」或「政治電影」，但它本質上即是一部政治電影。當你發現，為了這部片爭取經費時，或是完成後在各地映演時，你都會遇到許多困難。例如，當我們將這個想法告訴波蘭國家電視台的時候，它的代表告訴我們：「雖然這是部很美的電影，但我們沒辦法在波蘭公映」。當你旅行至50、80個國家時，你會發現這些人權並非被廣泛尊重。因此，我希望這部片能夠鼓舞人心，能夠與觀眾的人生產生連結。關乎觀眾自己與愛之間的關係、對愛與生活的詮釋。
在電影中有提到，奈莉和訥亭曾經有想過要出版她們的日記，這個願望有可能在今日實現嗎？
我們也常常被問到這個問題。在柏林影展時，席樂薇有自己回答過這個問題。她說她已經著手撰寫和蒐集素材，其中素材包含日記、信件、照片等等。她試圖瀏覽、閱讀所有的檔案與資料，她也說她會寫一本書。我也深深期待這個成果，因為我們在電影中所談論的故事，只是她們倆精彩人生的冰山一角而已。
Challenging Archives and Unveiling the Hidden Love Story
Interview with Magnus Gertten, director of Nelly & Nadine
What leads you to make this film?
In the beginning of Nelly & Nadine, you see a newsreel shot in April 1945, with survivors coming from the concentration camp. They arrived in my home town of Malmö, filmed in the moment of freedom.
When I saw this newsreel in 2007 for the first time, I became so fascinated by the faces of these women. I dreamt about someday I could find out who they are. I ended up making two films before Nelly & Nadine concerning these faces in the newsreel.
The second one is called Every Face Has a Name, premiered in 2015, where I put names to all these women who were standing there in the harbor. I thought I have done two films about the Second World War, and never more. But then I came to a big screening in Paris, probably the last screening for that film. In November 2016, just before I arrived there, I got an email from a farmer couple who lives outside of Paris. And they said we had a story that might be of interest to you, so I met the couple at the café. We drank some wine, and slowly they showed me some photos. In a way, they put this beautiful love story on my lap. And I realized maybe I really need to do one more film.
What’s Sylvie’s take on this journey of unveiling family secrets?
It’s not easy for Sylvie. When I first met her, she didn’t want to be part of the film, so I had to go back again, and that was the moment when she told me there were diaries that she wasn’t able to read. And they had an unopened archive in the attic. When I met her the second time, she said, “ok, I had to do this journey.” She is the one to confront this family secret: who was her grandmother exactly? What happened to her during the war? Sylvie was quite uncomfortable in the beginning, but when we had a premiere at the Berlinale. She went on to the stage, opened her arms and was so liberated, because of everything she went through. She felt so proud of being part of this beautiful love story.
And it’s really Sylvie that takes the decision here. What I can do as a filmmaker is try to be there when things are happening. It’s Sylvie that decided to embark on this journey into her family history. Of course, there were moments when she did not want to talk about things or felt uncomfortable in some situations. For example, we had a meeting with American feminist writer Joan Schenkar. It’s a brutal scene in a way, and it was tough for Sylvie. It’s really a moment of being slapped in the face: didn’t you realize these two women were in love? But Joan Schenkar probably articulates one of the most important things in the film: “nothing is real, socially, until it’s expressed.” That’s one of the journeys of the film. Sylvie finally expresses it and embraces the story.
It's amazing to hear Joan Schenkar talking about Natalie Clifford Barney.
It’s also a neglected and oppressed history. So I am very happy that we found one of the very few existing live footage of Natalie Clifford Barney. It was shot in the sixties, but it’s definitely her. When I was in Paris to meet Sylvie, I was walking alone and I was trying to get into the house where Natalie Barney once lived. It’s closed and has no plaque on Rue Jacob that tells people that for more than sixty years it’s the one of the most important literary salons in France, and of international significance, for female artists that were so supported by Natalie Clifford Barney. It’s a history that needed to be told.
Your journey begins with the archival footage, and it’s also the medium that you have been working a lot. Can you elaborate on your use of archival footage?
I have three different kinds of archival footage in my film. First is the newsreel. But you don’t have to accept that, “ok this is the archive I have and I have to use it in the best way.” Instead, you can go deeper into your archive, challenge it and ask the most impossible question.
Another gift comes from the 8mm films of Nelly and Nadine shot after the war. Most of that material is filmed by Nadine. You can tell there was some sort of relationship between the woman who held the camera and the woman in front of the camera. It’s love. It shows their everyday life they were able to build in Venezuela. People have been asking me why they had to go to Venezuela. I think we really need to remember the time. In Belgium, it was not illgal to live a lesbian life, but it was not easy. Venezuela was a booming state at that time. They ended up there and they also found their communities there.
I also have this “poetic archive material,” the diary written inside the concentration camp. The challenge for the filmmaker is: what do you see when you hear a story from a concentration camp. We spent months working on this. We later found a documentary shot in Belgium during the war by iconic documentary filmmaker Henri Storck. In order to make this film, he had to make an agreement with Nazi government at Belgium at that time. So there was something dark, strange and mystical about the images, which we use to pair with the diaries.
Nadine Huang is an incredible figure on many levels, but her stories remained largely untold even in the Chinese-speaking world. Can you comment on that?
At some screenings, I encountered some young Chinese audiences that were quite affected by the film, saying that it is also a film relevant to Chinese audiences today, especially concerning your big neighbor where people are not able to express themselves freely. We were also in contact with some Chinese filmmakers. They were working on some documentaries about Nadine. She is the daughter of the ambassador of Madrid, and then moving back to China. But she is also a modern woman, who could drive a car, do sports, learn five languages, become a lawyer and work for the Prime Minister. She could have it all in China, but decided to leave for Paris, in order to live a life true to herself.
The first time when I saw Nadine’s face in the footage, her face really stood out. She was liberated but she did not look happy. A sense of defiance even, seemingly asking the camera, “why are you here? You don’t know me.” We did know a little bit about her earlier life, but we did not have a clue about her life after the war. It really took a long time before we can have an idea. It’s also because Sylvie willing to embark on this journey with us.
Nadine is of course the big mystery of this film, because we heard a lot from Nelly’s diaries. So I certainly hope that someone would investigate more about Nadine. She is really a super cool woman, unbelievably brave. But one of the sad things about the mini documentaries that you can now find on Chinese streaming platform is that they don’t talk about her lesbian aspect. They talked about everything else except this.
This journey ends up leading to Latin America, meeting all these people, witnessing stories passing onto the next generations, what’s the most unforgettable thing for you?
I have never imagined Venezuela would end up in part of the film like this. One of the amazing things of making this film is meeting their old friend from Venezuela, José Rafael Lovera, who spent a lot of time with Nelly and Nadine. He was not able to live in Venezuela now because of the political situation. He is such a beautiful person, but he also said something we wondered a lot about. After that interview, I talked to his daughter. She said, “my father was never able to express himself. To express who he really feels he is.” So he too lived in a shadow in a way even though he had a family. But again, she told me, “my father is fine with me telling those stories.”
These are all very important. Because it's also a film about today. It’s not just a story about the end of the Second World War. And of course his daughter told us his story, and we were so looking forward to having him attending the premiere at the Berlinale. But unfortunately he died of Covid-19 in October last year. So he was never able to see part of his life story being told. That’s really sad.
In fact, it has to be a film about today. It’s not made like an activist or political film, but it is a political film. When you try to finance the film, and travel with the film, you encounter many difficulties. For example, when we presented this idea to Polish National Television, and the representative said, “it’s a beautiful story but we can’t broadcast it in Poland.” When you travel around fifty or eighty countries around the world, you realize that these are not the rights widely respected. I hope it can be an inspirational film that can relate to your own life, your own relationship to love and how you want life and love to be.
Your film has mentioned that Nelly and Nadine have once wanted to publish their journal, will their dream be realized nowadays?
We often receive this question. During the Berlinale, Sylvie herself answered this question. She said that she is writing and collecting all the materials, including journals, letters, photos, etc. She is trying to read everything. She said she would write the book, and I really hope that she could do that. What we talked about in the film is just a small part of this amazing life story.
